Excellent article; and to think our so-called leaders want to “improve” our power grid by essentially dismantling through not only wind but the radical idea of battery storage units. I’m confident that there is at least one or two instances in the world where one a battery storage unit caught fire and, you guessed it, was not able to be brought online to help with meeting power demand.
Good points re big time risks associated with large scale battery energy storage. Can you imagine the effect of a lightning strike or otherwise on one of these power banks?
Oh, it would be nothing less than catastrophe. What honestly bothers me is the ambitions that they have for these battery storage sites in terms of size. If just one of the units that comprises what we will call a “battery farm” catches fire and burns at 5000° like an EV, the containment buildings that the batteries reside in doubtfully will be able to contain all of the fire, let alone the heat (just my opinion), putting the other units at risk.
Yessir, that’s what I was insinuating! I was just trying to be both honest and fair due to not having seen it occur, and not researching it. As per your endorsement of thought, I could not imagine any less happening.
Yes, Tesla grid size batteries are lithium-ion. It's just a matter of time till one explodes. There are iron flow grid batteries that are safer (ESS Inc, for one), but of course they still make no sense economically either, and they will be worthless in an outage that lasts more than a few hours, since they only hold a few hours of storage capacity and won't even get re-charged until the sun comes out or the wind starts blowing again, maybe days after they the backup was needed. .
The Moss Landing grid storage battery was to come online in three phases. Phase 1 caught fire almost immediately, and phase 2 started smoking and was shut down. Both events caused shelter in place orders and road closures. I don’t think phase 1 ever returned to service, but phase 2 did. I could be wrong on this. They are now seeking permission to start phase 3.
I think both incidents were caused by cooling system failures. The cooling system uses about 30% of the stored energy and often can keep the battery from igniting…
Gas plants old and new in CA are being replaced by batteries… at least in theory. How the CA grid is supposed to charge them is an issue for the future I guess.
CGNP noted in a CPUC filing that the emergency sirens around Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant have never sounded as a consequence of a plant emergency in almost 40 years of operation. OTOH, the sirens around the Moss Landing have sounded after actual battery fire emergencies with shelter in place orders The CPUC ignored CGNP's comments..
And there is one of those instances I was ambiguously referring to! The fact that a third of the energy stored must be used in cooling the units makes this idea even less sustainable than it already is.
Yes - they use more power than they give back... so that totally makes sense!!!!! What genius thinks this will work... oh yes - that would be Elon Musk..... or does he - or is he just making money.. guess not so much now Tesla is having trouble!
I would have to agree, and will also give Musk the benefit of the doubt that he’s aware of these problems while also staying neutral because I truly don’t think he believes that his product or EVs for that matter are an end-all-be-all. Kind of like, “These are my products. Read the disclaimers. Use at your own discretion.”
I apologize if this sounds tenuous or likes substance — just my opinion — especially since you never see him publicly talking about it (at least I haven’t).
They need to nickname that thing “Railgate” or something akin to that. That project has been a “project” for longer than people realize, all of which has gone nowhere and/or amounted to f*** all because of how much money has been dumped into it.
I’m looking at a grid connection for a molten salt storage storage contraption with heat pumps and compressors that is 40% efficient. Seeing the puzzled look on my face the developer said, well, it is scalable. That’s what endless subsidies get you.
Seriously! That’s the only reason (in my opinion) that utility companies are playing ball with all this “green” stuff is because of that right there. The subsidies, in a way, allow them (utility companies) to get off scot-free because it doesn’t come directly out of their pockets.
A couple of other projects trying to connect to the CA grid…. A pumped hydro storage project in the Mojave desert. It’s a desert because there’s no water. A compressed air storage in a salt dome that s so leaky that when PG&E tried to use it for natural gas storage a farmer’s field caught fire two miles away. Your tax dollars at work, and your grandchildren’s too.
I have no words… Sounds like caution surrounding that project was thrown completely to the wind, and the people with the, “we’ll make it work” approach didn’t know (or care) to speak up.
There’s get what you pay for and then there’s GET what you PAY for… In this instance, it’s paying for people’s decisions who have no business making said decisions in the first place.
As opposed to the meme on Clean Technica. Of course there are many more ICE fires, there are many more ICE vehicles. What they don't understand is 90% of ICE car fires are small. A battery fire is tremendously destructive
Right, there's really no comparison. I never heard of an ICE fire that was so hot that it burned everything around it. I think most EV fires are in the electrical wiring, and they don't start "spontaneously" while sitting idle, they start from a short or a crash. There wouldn't be any wiring fires if it weren't for the fact that ICE vehicles can last for 20, 30, or 40 years - time enough for the wiring to get old - that will never be a problem for EVs, but I would hardly call that an advantage - LOL.
Thunderhill a lot, Sonoma a little. The gang always wanted to drag me down to Buttonwillow, but it just looked like a dust bowl to me. Oregon Raceway a couple times, great track! And Utah Motorsports Park with Ford. Back in the college drag racing days, Firebird Raceway in Boise, and Intermountain Drag Strip in Pocatello. Firebird had some pretty spectacular fuel car fires.
We ran the the 25 hour enduro at Thunderhill for years, and I’ve instructed a zillion track days there. Far more frightening than being in an actual race. Love Sonoma which I still call sears point. A friend bought an old Bill Elliot Thunderbird road racer and asked me to drive it in one of those vintage NASCAR things at Willow. I was 60 at the time and the track is so fast it scared me…I said no. Maybe a spec Miata but nothing with over 200 hp!. I had some fun road racing. Kinda sorry it’s over.
I recently was told that new solar panel roof installations in my part of California were requiring a battery panel to be installed in the house‘s garage at the same time…along with a smoke detector next to the battery pack in case it catches fire. Glad my solar system was installed prior to this. I’ll pass on the battery pack. Saving up for a dual fuel generator instead.
Don't forget the recent events in Arizona...., "'Reasons that are still unknown': 30 experts investigate Surprise battery explosion that injured 9" April 23, 2019 by Ryan Randazzo.
That just makes so much sense! We need them now. And I am hoping Goggle, Meta, and all the data centers, as well as indutry, decide they need to move on the SMR market and make it work - now! Get these guys off the grid and the rest of us maybe ok, maybe.
Thanks - Amazing info and pics. Even though EV fires are "rare", some of them have been very dangerous and destructive, several times hotter then an ICE fire, endangering anything nearby, and with toxic fumes to boot. In a normal society, EVs would be outlawed.
Good compilation of info here -- very alarming. EVs are usually junked if the battery is damaged, even if the rest of the car is intact, because replacing it is so expensive.
Great research and article on point. A year or so ago Score (baja 500/1000) attempted to run EVs. :) Baja is the place to test your ideas, math, and engineering skills. It was a disaster. Enough said. If the best can't get it to work in a baja test, it's not going to make it thru idot'ville.
Exactly my conviction, if the technology is not suitable for the masses, there can be no roll-out. If you do it anyway, it's criminal, it's as simple as that ... .
Excellent article; and to think our so-called leaders want to “improve” our power grid by essentially dismantling through not only wind but the radical idea of battery storage units. I’m confident that there is at least one or two instances in the world where one a battery storage unit caught fire and, you guessed it, was not able to be brought online to help with meeting power demand.
Excellent work, sir! Thank you! 😃
Thank you for your comments Patrick, appreciated!
Good points re big time risks associated with large scale battery energy storage. Can you imagine the effect of a lightning strike or otherwise on one of these power banks?
Oh, it would be nothing less than catastrophe. What honestly bothers me is the ambitions that they have for these battery storage sites in terms of size. If just one of the units that comprises what we will call a “battery farm” catches fire and burns at 5000° like an EV, the containment buildings that the batteries reside in doubtfully will be able to contain all of the fire, let alone the heat (just my opinion), putting the other units at risk.
I think you meant the containment buildings will NOT be able to contain all of the fire, and I would agree.
Yessir, that’s what I was insinuating! I was just trying to be both honest and fair due to not having seen it occur, and not researching it. As per your endorsement of thought, I could not imagine any less happening.
Yes, Tesla grid size batteries are lithium-ion. It's just a matter of time till one explodes. There are iron flow grid batteries that are safer (ESS Inc, for one), but of course they still make no sense economically either, and they will be worthless in an outage that lasts more than a few hours, since they only hold a few hours of storage capacity and won't even get re-charged until the sun comes out or the wind starts blowing again, maybe days after they the backup was needed. .
The Moss Landing grid storage battery was to come online in three phases. Phase 1 caught fire almost immediately, and phase 2 started smoking and was shut down. Both events caused shelter in place orders and road closures. I don’t think phase 1 ever returned to service, but phase 2 did. I could be wrong on this. They are now seeking permission to start phase 3.
I think both incidents were caused by cooling system failures. The cooling system uses about 30% of the stored energy and often can keep the battery from igniting…
Wow, the formerly reliable gas fired and fuel oil plant at Moss Landing is now a battery disaster?
Newsom's California 😨
Gas plants old and new in CA are being replaced by batteries… at least in theory. How the CA grid is supposed to charge them is an issue for the future I guess.
And taxpayer dollars torched. Incredibly inefficient vs direct burn of fuel.
CGNP noted in a CPUC filing that the emergency sirens around Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant have never sounded as a consequence of a plant emergency in almost 40 years of operation. OTOH, the sirens around the Moss Landing have sounded after actual battery fire emergencies with shelter in place orders The CPUC ignored CGNP's comments..
And there is one of those instances I was ambiguously referring to! The fact that a third of the energy stored must be used in cooling the units makes this idea even less sustainable than it already is.
Yes - they use more power than they give back... so that totally makes sense!!!!! What genius thinks this will work... oh yes - that would be Elon Musk..... or does he - or is he just making money.. guess not so much now Tesla is having trouble!
I would have to agree, and will also give Musk the benefit of the doubt that he’s aware of these problems while also staying neutral because I truly don’t think he believes that his product or EVs for that matter are an end-all-be-all. Kind of like, “These are my products. Read the disclaimers. Use at your own discretion.”
I apologize if this sounds tenuous or likes substance — just my opinion — especially since you never see him publicly talking about it (at least I haven’t).
Like the CA high speed rail project, a debacle!
They need to nickname that thing “Railgate” or something akin to that. That project has been a “project” for longer than people realize, all of which has gone nowhere and/or amounted to f*** all because of how much money has been dumped into it.
CA budget shortfall $70 billion+
https://calmatters.org/politics/capitol/2024/02/california-budget-deficit-balloons/
the doom loop.
🤯
And over how many years now?
I’m looking at a grid connection for a molten salt storage storage contraption with heat pumps and compressors that is 40% efficient. Seeing the puzzled look on my face the developer said, well, it is scalable. That’s what endless subsidies get you.
Seriously! That’s the only reason (in my opinion) that utility companies are playing ball with all this “green” stuff is because of that right there. The subsidies, in a way, allow them (utility companies) to get off scot-free because it doesn’t come directly out of their pockets.
Yup.. that and return on investment ratemaking.
A couple of other projects trying to connect to the CA grid…. A pumped hydro storage project in the Mojave desert. It’s a desert because there’s no water. A compressed air storage in a salt dome that s so leaky that when PG&E tried to use it for natural gas storage a farmer’s field caught fire two miles away. Your tax dollars at work, and your grandchildren’s too.
I have no words… Sounds like caution surrounding that project was thrown completely to the wind, and the people with the, “we’ll make it work” approach didn’t know (or care) to speak up.
There’s get what you pay for and then there’s GET what you PAY for… In this instance, it’s paying for people’s decisions who have no business making said decisions in the first place.
Wild stuff, almost speechless
As opposed to the meme on Clean Technica. Of course there are many more ICE fires, there are many more ICE vehicles. What they don't understand is 90% of ICE car fires are small. A battery fire is tremendously destructive
Car Fires by Vehicle Type (meme) https://cleantechnica.com/2024/05/03/car-fires-by-vehicle-type-meme-2/
👍 find Kilovar, thanks for that one, makes sense.
Another real risk is the e-bikes in apartments being charged. No thanks.
AGREE!
majority of e-bike fires are a result of using counterfeit batteries
Right, there's really no comparison. I never heard of an ICE fire that was so hot that it burned everything around it. I think most EV fires are in the electrical wiring, and they don't start "spontaneously" while sitting idle, they start from a short or a crash. There wouldn't be any wiring fires if it weren't for the fact that ICE vehicles can last for 20, 30, or 40 years - time enough for the wiring to get old - that will never be a problem for EVs, but I would hardly call that an advantage - LOL.
yes lots more ICE fires, but how many are spontaneous? how many require special equipment and techniques to put out the fire?
I'm surprised that insurance companies have not raised their rates for EV coverage
They have been raising rates as I understand it
I have spent at lot of time at the racetrack. Racecars just love to catch on fire, even then they are rarely severely damaged.
Thunderhill?
Thunderhill a lot, Sonoma a little. The gang always wanted to drag me down to Buttonwillow, but it just looked like a dust bowl to me. Oregon Raceway a couple times, great track! And Utah Motorsports Park with Ford. Back in the college drag racing days, Firebird Raceway in Boise, and Intermountain Drag Strip in Pocatello. Firebird had some pretty spectacular fuel car fires.
Fun, friction, tire dust and waste heat👍 'Merica
We ran the the 25 hour enduro at Thunderhill for years, and I’ve instructed a zillion track days there. Far more frightening than being in an actual race. Love Sonoma which I still call sears point. A friend bought an old Bill Elliot Thunderbird road racer and asked me to drive it in one of those vintage NASCAR things at Willow. I was 60 at the time and the track is so fast it scared me…I said no. Maybe a spec Miata but nothing with over 200 hp!. I had some fun road racing. Kinda sorry it’s over.
I recently was told that new solar panel roof installations in my part of California were requiring a battery panel to be installed in the house‘s garage at the same time…along with a smoke detector next to the battery pack in case it catches fire. Glad my solar system was installed prior to this. I’ll pass on the battery pack. Saving up for a dual fuel generator instead.
Wow, now a requirement that puts your home at risk.
It's hard enough to get good insurance these days.
No kidding. Especially in Southern California, people are getting their policies cancelled left and right.
I’ve heard that too. I think that’ll be a requirement for new construction…like homes in CA aren’t expensive enough.
Don't forget the recent events in Arizona...., "'Reasons that are still unknown': 30 experts investigate Surprise battery explosion that injured 9" April 23, 2019 by Ryan Randazzo.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/energy/2019/04/23/arizona-public-service-provides-update-investigation-battery-fire-aps-surprise/3540437002/
The plan is to construct a massive three-story tall battery warehouse on the water in Morro Bay, California. Pure madness driven by subsidy-seekers.
That's an interesting read, thanks Gene.
"Batteries as big as houses"
AZ has a fantastic nuclear plant that supplies 29 % of the State's electricity. We need more like that.
Absolutely. A modern nuclear plant includes onsite energy storage that typically runs for 18-20 months. It can run about two years in an emergency.
That just makes so much sense! We need them now. And I am hoping Goggle, Meta, and all the data centers, as well as indutry, decide they need to move on the SMR market and make it work - now! Get these guys off the grid and the rest of us maybe ok, maybe.
Thanks - Amazing info and pics. Even though EV fires are "rare", some of them have been very dangerous and destructive, several times hotter then an ICE fire, endangering anything nearby, and with toxic fumes to boot. In a normal society, EVs would be outlawed.
Good compilation of info here -- very alarming. EVs are usually junked if the battery is damaged, even if the rest of the car is intact, because replacing it is so expensive.
Thanks for the comment KT, yep, even if the battery has a small cosmetic scratch they are scrapping the cars. Too risky.
But there is an emerging market overseas for used EVs and repairing them if they can get them cheap enough.
Great article! Thanks.
The MGUY video: "... around the world and in New Zealand." A true Aussi, he is.
Great research and article on point. A year or so ago Score (baja 500/1000) attempted to run EVs. :) Baja is the place to test your ideas, math, and engineering skills. It was a disaster. Enough said. If the best can't get it to work in a baja test, it's not going to make it thru idot'ville.
Exactly my conviction, if the technology is not suitable for the masses, there can be no roll-out. If you do it anyway, it's criminal, it's as simple as that ... .
Hello Acumen, and welcome!
How far did the EVs make it in the Baja Torture Test before they had to find burros 🫏 to tow 'em?
😂
40 Miles. The race was the San Felipe 250. Not a video of the actual race but this years highlight Video - https://youtu.be/4Mci5qZIU5Q
A picture giving us a "hot" insight of what´s going on with subsidy "powered" markets